Classé and Simaudio preamps

February 25, 2009

Editor,

I have been privileged to listen to Dynaudio Temptations with Simaudio Moon W-8 and P-8 and the top-of-the-line Moon Andromeda CD player -- great sound.

I noticed at one time you had all three of these pieces in your system and read your review of these pieces. Later I noticed that you “lost” the amplifier and kept the preamp.

In Stereophile magazine Kal Rubinson said of his W-8 that he felt it had a midbass warmth/hump.

I have also read your colleague’s review of the Classé CP-700, and I am wondering why you have not paired it with the Classé Omega Omicron Monos. I am a believer in using the preamp and amp from the same manufacturer, even though admittedly some manufacturers are better at their amps than they are with the preamps. Still, the idea is to hopefully have the sound cut from the same cloth and avoid possible poor interactions between preamp and amp (such as high output impedance from the preamp and low input impedance in the amp).

I hope you will at some point in the near future address the questions that follow: The Classé CP-500 preamplifier retails at $4000 and the Classé CP-700 preamplifier retails at $8000.

First, please know that I am not into specsmanship per se. Although the CP-700 shows a S-to-N rating that is quieter, the overall specs are not much different. When I wrote to the manufacturer I received the following:

They are also profoundly different. The CP-500 design places an emphasis on integrated circuits (ICs), which are microchips. The ICs deployed in the CP-500 are very high quality and designed for audio applications but they have specific functions, which cannot be modified by our engineers. In the CP-700, many of these ICs are replaced by discrete circuits which have been specially designed by our engineers. This approach is more cost intensive but it gives our engineers more freedom to influence the quality of the sound. The CP-700 amplification section is an example of this. It is a pair of boards that replace two ICs in the CP-500 and which are considered to be among the highest performing boards we have ever built. The CP-700 also makes more sophisticated use of balanced circuitry, and has three buffers (one for single ended, one for Balanced 1 and another for Balanced 2) thus keeping the single-ended and balanced paths entirely independent. The CP-500 has only one buffer, so the signal goes to either balanced or single ended. These fundamental differences result in different sounding products, with the CP-700 considered the better of the two.

Can upgraded parts make such a difference in sound? I know there is a whole cottage industry that upgrades gear with better caps, etc., but I hope you will test these pieces (the Classé CP-700 and Classé CP-500) ) and possibly the Classé CA-M400 mono blocks as well some time in the future. John Atkinson wrote that the P-7 and P-8 share almost the same circuitry; the Classé scenario is different and I would very much appreciate it and I believe your readers would like to see if what I received in writing was mere salesmanship or a reality wherein parts upgrades are worth twice the price.

Your impressions of the P-8 versus the Classé CP-700 if you have heard it would really be appreciated for I am considering the Classé CA-M400 monoblocks and of course feel that the CP-700 would be the natural match, but I am in no position to pair the P-8 with it at a dealer for there is no single Classé and Simaudio dealer, meaning someone who has both together under the same roof.

Christopher Frank

I think you’ll find that the Simaudio and Classé flagship preamps share at least one trait with each other when compared to their lesser-expensive siblings within the same line: they both have been built with a near cost-no-object mentality that takes certain design elements deemed important by their respective designers and carries them to their logical extreme. The Classé example that you cite is a good case in point. Going from integrated circuits to discrete circuits is far more than just a parts upgrade. It is a fundamentally more complex approach that requires far more time investment in the engineering process. The balanced circuitry also requires a vast increase in parts count and even more engineering time and expertise. The Simaudio P-8 is also quite different than the P-7 if you look closely. For instance, the volume control in the P-8 is, according to Simaudio, much more costly to implement and quite a bit better in actual performance. As well, the two-box P-8 solution versus the one-box P-7 is also designed to take performance to another level. This is not to say that you’ll always hear these improvements in every system: the higher resolution your system is to begin with the more revealing these better components will be.

As for my system, I simply felt that the P-8 was the best preamp I’d ever heard, whereas the W-8 amplifier was simply among the best. And subsequent to my review, Simaudio introduced the W-7M mono amps, which are now their top-of-the-line. Typically I agree that having a preamp and amp from the same company makes the most sense. I’ve said that same thing many times. In this case, however, I think the strengths of the Omicron Monos as paired with the P-8 preamp are simply exceptional. I doubt there is a bad match between any of the components you are considering, and I can’t tell you which you’d find the most satisfying over the long term. What I can tell you is that both Classé and Simaudio are outstanding companies, and I consider their products in a select group that ranks as the best solid state available. Good luck in your decision....Jeff Fritz

Music system for a music lover

February 19, 2009

To Albert Bellg,

I am serious about music but not an audiophile, so guidance from an expert would be appreciated.

I have old speakers being repaired, an old Adcom system at home for 20 years, and I’m ready to move up. I heard a Parasound Halo system yesterday in combination with speakers handmade by Ray of the Speaker Factory in Gaithersburg, Maryland. I was really impressed by the sound and also the setting, as I didn't feel like I was in a showroom and being pressured.

So I was a little disappointed that you felt that classical music might not be best served by Parasound, although maybe it can't be reproduced by any system that I would feel comfortable buying. Is your negative assessment too trivial for me to worry about, even if classical is a big part of our collection?

Ray also made me think about what it means to listen to music that isn't coming from iPods or digitized sound systems. Is this mode dying with the 100,000 aging audiophiles left in the country? I was actually thrilled by the sound I heard from this equipment, but I am not sure that anyone but me will even notice, since music is mainly background or mood making or there to remind of a melody to most people.

Neal Young

PS: And although it may be obvious, just two more thoughts:

1. People like me may value music enormously, even play instruments seriously, but buy equipment every several decades and either cannot or do not one want to become audiophiles -- and therefore are absolutely dependent on the world of experts!

2. We mainly cannot feasibly do head-to-head comparisons of infinite combinations of amps, tuners, preamps, etc. Instead, we make decisions on inadequate information. We may hear something really good but not know if it is the "best," even for us. The cost differences are substantial. In the absence of confidence, too many choices lead to no decisions. That’s bad because we may miss out one of modern life's great and relatively easy pleasures, and presumably bad also for those who sell the really good stuff.

Please don't doubt your own ears! Everyone hears audio gear a bit differently, and, just to make it even more complicated, the different things that we hear are more or less important to different people. I am more than usually sensitive to the timbres of acoustical music, but someone else (you, for instance) may be perfectly delighted listening to classical and other music on gear that I hear as a little "off."

Parasound equipment in general gets very positive reviews, and the JC 2 preamp I reviewed was one of the most impressive pieces of audio gear that I've ever heard on many of the dimensions that matter. As I noted in my review, I almost bought it -- and if I had, I'm sure I'd be enjoying it a lot. If you like what you hear when you listen to it, that's all that really matters.

I presume that your other question relates to the question of vinyl vs. the rest of the audio sources. Again, if you are "thrilled" by what you hear, that's the answer to your question. Vinyl is enjoying a resurgence in the market due to the significantly better turntables that are now available. But even if it were in decline, why let the behavior of the audio market or people who listen to music as "background" compromise your own listening experience? The final judge of your audio system is your own ears -- buy the gear that makes them happy.

By the way, kudos to Ray Indris at the Speaker Factory, who reports on his website that he's been in business since 1959. He's the sort of audio builder and retailer who's becoming more and more scarce in our hobby, but who contributes an understanding of audio that is invaluable and irreplaceable. It sounds like he had some good ideas and suggestions for you, and is willing to work with you to develop a system you like. He may be your solution to "the paralysis of analysis" in buying a new system, and you could do a lot worse than working with someone of his experience! Good luck and best wishes....Albert Bellg

"Thanks for leading the way"

February 13, 2009

Editor,

The Chris Lang photos are, as you said, superb. One suggestion: Add a "slideshow" feature so one click cycles through the entire gallery. Also, I've had a chance to hear a Weiss DAC on two separate occasions in a music-server system. It may not be the one and only future, but it is clearly one of them.

Also, I love the new format. I’m looking forward to the shootout and how the new “TWBAS 2009” compares to your MacBook-based rig. Thanks for leading the way.

Jay Valancy

Speaker advice

February 11, 2009

Editor,

I was reading your thread on “TWBAS 2009,” and some of your articles, and I wanted to know if I could ask you about speakers in the $12k-$20k range. I never hear anyone mention KEF 207/2s or the 205/2s. Is that because they don't measure up to other speakers in that range, such as Sonus Faber Cremonas or Revel Studio 2s? I would appreciate some direction in terms of speakers in that range to listen to. I currently have a two-channel system with Meadowlark Herons, a VAC 30/30 amp and preamp, and a Cary 300 CD player. I have Synergistic speaker cables and interconnects.

Jason

I have heard the newest KEF speakers and they sound fantastic. I absolutely do think they measure up to the speakers you mention, without question. Don’t confuse lack of press or consumer buzz with whether or not a speaker is up to par. I can tell you that the SoundStage! Network reviewers who have auditioned the KEFs have all come away impressed. Have a look at Albert Bellg’s review of the 203/2 for an example. I think the Revel and Sonus Faber speakers are also worth auditioning, but certainly don't discount KEF....Jeff Fritz

Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 or...?

February 9, 2009

To Albert Bellg,

Could I ask if you know of a solid-state amp comparable to the Conrad-Johnson Premier 350? I cannot find a Premier 350 anywhere! I have a CT-5 and Esoteric MG-20 speakers.

Ken

If I were looking for a first-rate solid-state amp in the price range of the Conrad-Johnson Premier 350, I'd start by thinking about what I'd want the amp to do. Will it be driving speakers with 93dB sensitivity, or 83dB sensitivity? Your Esoteric MG20s are wonderful speakers and have slightly better-than-average 89dB sensitivity, so that opens you up to considering lower-watt solid-state amps that function in class A. Also, are you twitchy about some specific characteristic, such as bass performance, midrange clarity, or accurate acoustic timbres? That might steer you toward some brands more than others.

Once you get a handle on what you want and need, read reviews and listen to as many amp candidates as are available to you. It's not totally out of the question to purchase an amp without having actually heard it. That's what I did with the Premier 350. What made me confident that the Premier 350 was the amp I wanted was the reading I'd done about it and other amps, and the fact that I'd owned a Conrad-Johnson MF2500 a couple of years earlier and liked it a lot. Ultimately, your own ears need to be happy with your decision, and no reviewer has the final word on that....Albert Bellg

The perfect amp for Peak Consult speakers?

February 6, 2009

Editor,

I've read what you have written about Vitus Audio, Pass Labs and most recently the Classé Omega Omicron mono amps. Could you tell me how the Simaudio W-8 fits in by comparison? I have the Simaudio P-8 preamp. I also have an ARC Reference 3 sitting next to it. The challenge is to get the most out of Peak Consult Zoltan speakers, which are a little dark, a little laid-back and don't have the immediacy/presence of Wilson. They are sort of like Sonus Faber. Does the W-8 have a more forward presentation or is it more laid-back like Vitus? I value a more forward and big presentation, but I don't want to sacrifice shaded nuance, microdynamics and "relaxed" virtues of both the Vitus Audio amp and the Zoltans.

Marty Williams

The Simaudio is not exactly laid-back, but it does offer a warmer, “bigger” more fleshed-out sound. My thinking is that you’d like it with the Peak Consult speakers due to the increased size of soundstage it renders, though it may not be the absolute best fit in terms of being “immediate.” The Pass Labs amplifiers might be the most immediate of the bunch -- I likened them to a live microphone feed in my review of them (X600.5 monos), and they really do seem to be what you’re looking for in that regard. The Classé amps have the most forward presentation, particularly in the midrange, so they are certainly contenders too. Lastly, the Vitus Audio amp is really dead neutral, so that is a good choice if you’re not looking to have the amplifier really impact the sound of your loudspeaker. I do know that Vitus is often paired with Peak Consult, and I believe both brands use the other in their own factory showrooms, a pretty good indication of how they work together. Really, all of these amplifiers are excellent, truly can’t-go-wrong propositions....Jeff Fritz

KOJ

February 3, 2009

Editor,

It was with great interest that I devoured your article on Keith Johnson, aka KOJ, the brains behind Reference Recordings, Spectral electronics, and now HRx, and one of the lowest-profile giants of the high-end digital world whom I knew next to nothing about.

Nobody in my opinion (other than arguably Ed Meitner) in early digital reproduction did as much to lift everything possible out of the severely limited 16-bit digital medium, with such advances as HDCD and his brilliant work with Spectral. Now Professor Johnson continues to forge ahead with HRx, allowing us to hear ultra-high-sampling-rate, bit-for-bit, identical-to-the-masters spectacular recordings in our own homes!

The promise of this new digital distribution medium brings sound reproduction full circle to the genius of RR's early analog recordings like Däfos, and hopefully ushers in a new era of possibility in the front-end digital space as they open up the more of the RR catalog and, who knows, maybe someday (hopefully) even license other labels' recordings to bring us closer to the music we all love.

Owen Lawlor